E03: Accessibility Expertise

May 9, 2021

This episode features a conversation with Neil Eustice, Diversity & Knowledge Manager, KPMG UK, and Jodie Greer, Be #PeopleSmart​ Ltd. Enabling your organisation to succeed. Neil and Jodie will be sharing their own experiences in both the built environment and in the world of technology, to enable organisations to provide reasonable adjustments or accommodations, meet their legal accountabilities and ensure all those responsible for delivery have the required skills, understand the value and have the ability to deliver accessibility best practice. Hear about how accessibility is acting as a driver for the global economy, how to set your organisation up for long term success and why settling for ‘good enough’ does not add value Sponsor and monitor the implementation and continuity of an organizational workplace adjustments process Ensure organizational accessibility standards, requirements, policies, and procedures are developed, communicated, and maintained for the digital and built environments and people interactions Provide awareness, education, and training on how to apply the accessibility standards, requirements, policies, and procedures for the digital and built environments and people interactions Educate the organization on accessibility legislation and regulations in all operating countries. 

 

SPEAKER:
Please welcome Neil Eustice and Jodie Greer.  Neil is the Diversity and Knowledge Manager at K.P.M.G. for their I.T. department. He works as the Content Manager for their internal web presence and ServiceNow knowledge base, ensuring proactive delivery to the end user.  As well as ensuring inclusion and diversity is front and centre within their IT department, to ensure their disabled colleagues get the assistive technologies they need to perform at their best.  

 

Jodie is the Managing Director at Be PeopleSmart, where she shares her knowledge, successes and how to overcome barriers, with organisations across multiple industries in the interest of simply putting human factors back into business. Be PeopleSmart works to make disability inclusion and accessibility achievable and aligned with other strategies.   

 

Today they will be discussing how to enable your organisation to succeed.  They will touch on how accessibility is acting as a driver for the global economy, how to meet legal accountabilities, how to educate an organization on accessibility legislation and regulations in all operating countries, and more! 

 

JODIE GREER:
So one of the key domains in our body of knowledge for Strategic Leaders in Accessibility, our SLiA, is of course, which I say of course but it seems obvious - accessibility expertise. To really influence you need to know your stuff. We talk about this and we talk about it a lot. I guess it is just important, quite literally, that you do know your subject matter. Neil, what are your thoughts on that and how we capture it in our body of knowledge?

NEIL EUSTICE:
It does appear that there is a lack of accreditations across the globe in relation to this topic. That is one area where the IAAP really step up to enable development, and competency assurance. If you see that somebody has a CPACC or WAS, or IAAP accreditations, or what we are currently working on, the Strategic Leader in Accessibility, then at least you know they have proven knowledge that has been tested and certified to recognize standards.

JODIE GREER:
Absolutely! For me, it is about people being able to develop. It gives them opportunities to understand where to go and what knowledge to broader. It is proven competence. So those of us who are already leading in this space. It is really nice to demonstrate to yourself and your stakeholders that you are an SLiA. That would be a brilliant addition to the different accreditations that we see at the IAAP.

NEIL EUSTICE:
And unlike the other accreditations we have looked at previously in IAAP, this is quite a broad ranging topic, the SLiA, the Strategic Leader in Accessibility, has to not just have knowledge of the technical IT workings of things but also the build side of things. How accessible the building, and things like that. And a bit of a people knowledge as well around HR, legislation. You have got to be able to influence a lot of people to make sure your business is truly accessible.

You can't have one without the other. It is no good having a great team of accessibility experts in IT if the rest of the business is ignoring accessibility. Your business just won’t cut it. It has got to happen right across the board.

JODIE GREER:
I completely agree with you. I think for me one of the really nice things is that here in the taskforce of the SLiA is the wide range and holistic knowledge of accessibility that we have got within the team. I think the community of practice calls we have had already and the interaction we have had from accessibility professionals has been quite powerful. We have learned a lot from people. It is enabling us to therefore put that forward as part of our body of knowledge.

So obviously we are planning this certification and absolutely hope to see it all go live. This is going to really traction people's development. But also, we need to be practical about this. There is a reason behind needing accessibility. Of course, there is people. But there's also legal obligation. So why would you say, Neil, companies should really be concerned about making sure they are meeting accessibility requirements?

NEIL EUSTICE:
There's so many countries around the world at the moment that are making it clear that discrimination against disabled persons is not only wrong but illegal in their jurisdiction. Across Europe they have mandated on the requirements for public procurement of products and services. The UK have the Equality Act and the public sector bodies accessibility regulations. You have the US with Section 508, Australia with a Disability Discrimination Act, a National Strategy for Web Accessibility. Canada, their government has web standards and within Canada itself, Ontario got the Accessibility of Ontarians. Right across the world there are legislations coming out. The point is, there are over 40 legislations and growing around the world.

It is not just the fear of legal disputes that should be driving your business to act on this topic. If you just concentrate on meeting the legal requirements, then you might be in a position where you just do the legal minimum to safeguard your self from lawsuits. But, your reputation could be tarnished and even trashed without ever going anywhere near a court case.

When it comes to the level of accessibility you should apply to your business, our colleague Subhash put it rather nicely recently. He said “Would you rather your child passes a test or pass with distinction? Why would you want less for your business, your staff or your customers?”

JODIE GREER:
I really like that point that he made. I think this is kind of the point as well. Sometimes what is seen as good enough really doesn't add value. It is important that we don't have tick box exercises as well. Some additional planning, it can really set you up for long-term success as well. Because of course the world changes. Your staff change. Peoples’ individual needs change. It is so important that you don't lose talent, but you also of course don't lose productivity.

But legislation aside, its really about doing the right thing, isn’t it? It is Be PeopleSmart but it is about putting a bit of human centricity back into the workplace.

NEIL EUSTICE:
I like the idea that people are at the centre of all of this. I know that you were going to talk about the difference between universal design and design with reasonable adjustments. It is not just the technical side of things you need to look at. It is what is best for people, and organizations often attempt to make accommodations. However, they often fall short in meeting their requirements, and enabling people to complete their roles. Or they use products or services, for example, accessible toilets actually meet the needs of many employees. Accessibility is not a one-time affair. It is an ongoing process which has to be maintained for its lifetime.

JODIE GREER:
Absolutely. I completely agree with you. One of my new favorite sayings which I actually borrowed, I won’t say stole, from someone at a recent event is that it is about having enabled staff and customers. It is not about disabled staff and customers, it is enabling every body.

I think that is a really nice way of looking at it. It is good for your people and certainly good for your business. But ya, you reference the whole universal design versus accessibility adjustments or accommodations. It is something I am really keen to talk about because for me, absolutely, reasonable accommodations; I mean, we can get a bit fixed on the word reasonable to be honest, so accessibility accommodations or adjustments for individuals are absolutely essential. We are all different. People have different ways of working and preferences and things. We need to make sure people can do what they need to do.

But also, universal design is really important. That proactive focus to enable everyone in the first place can actually make life just so much easier for literally everyone about. And then, for those who still need an adjustment or accommodation, that comes thereafter. I think sometimes what I do not see so much, obviously there are building regulations, but when it comes to physical workplace, the built environment, and also the digital workplace. The proactive thing can be a bit lacking sometimes. And I think for me that is somewhere I would love to see a lot more attention put.

It is not just about good practice. I think the other thing as well, we often see a bit of hesitance around making accommodations and adjustments, but actually so often they are free, they are low-cost, but ultimately the productivity of someone who is enabled is kind of priceless. So, what are your thoughts there?

NEIL EUSTICE:
Ya, you are right there is an awful lot of stuff that is free now. Accommodations that are built into a lot of products that we use now, and supplies and manufacturers are getting better and better at building stuff in so you can make changes for individuals. 

Also, you say about making somebody enabled and giving them the adjustments that they need, makes them more worthwhile to the business. They get the business done. If you give a level playing field across the board, then everyone has an equal chance of performing their job role, their task. So, to get the most out of somebody you need to give them what they need to do the job of work and whether that is assistive technology in the form of additional software or hardware or whether it is just putting rules and processes in place to help them makes them A more productive but B more loyal to you as well. They tend to, if they feel comfortable, they have the adjustments they need and then they tend to fit in better. They stay longer, you just get more out of them.

JODIE GREER:
Absolutely! I think sometimes we don't even realize that most if not all of us have an adjustment. I choose to use a one ear cordless headset because it works better for me. I can get up and move around if I choose and so on. Yours is different than mine. Even irrespective of any disability impairment or specific need this works better for me and I feel I work better with certain equipment.

NEIL EUSTICE:
Ya, and it really is a case of supplying what works for the individuals. It is not a case of well, there are lots of things that can do this for somebody let's choose one because it's more cost-effective and I've seen a lot of people trying to do that. You can’t have one-size-fits-all especially when it comes to accessibility because let's face it every disability is unique to the individual and everyone shows or reacts to their disability in a different way and needs slightly different adjustment to somebody who might have what in medical terms is the same disability. 

You have to be flexible. You have to be able to provide what they need then to do the job of work. But it doesn't have to cost the earth. If you plan things properly and if you have the right partners in place and get the right knowledge within your business, then you can find out that actually adjustments is just a simple process, really low cost and you get more for your money if you plan these things. Because you get more out of your people by making sure the adjustments are properly in place.

JODIE GREER:
Absolutely, and I think a big thing with that, going back to the kind of design versus accommodations piece is if you actually design with accessibility in mind its actually a cost saver often. You don't pay for retrofit, you don’t pay for alternatives as well as, because it didn’t actually meet all the needs. You have a solution that works for everyone. I think sometimes people fall short of recognizing that because everyone gets so busy with their projects and things. With a bit of knowledge and a bit of foresight you get a superior product or service that actually works for your employees and customers. And did it actually cost anymore or is it actually also a cost savings? But also then you get that ongoing retention and also attracting new talent because they can recognize that actually you are inclusive.

NEIL EUSTICE:
Yeah, everyone who works in technology knows it is a lot more expensive to build in accessibility as an afterthought. If you had only done it at the beginning it would have saved you a huge amount of time and money. It's just not sensible to not think about accessibility when you are designing something right from the offset.

JODIE GREER:
Absolutely. I think that's why we have been talking a lot when we have been looking at the body of knowledge for the SLiA around the fact that of course to actually be a Strategic Leader in Accessibility, really you need to take that, whether it be ownership or that overarching ownership and the monitoring of the design and implementation of accommodations or adjustment process, the organization.

There needs to be a proper end to end process. It can't just be a written document. It has to work and that really is what is going to drive individual’s success but certainly business success.

NEIL EUSTICE:
That is the internal collaboration piece, isn't it? Making sure you've joined all the dots. That every person in your business understands what accessibility is about. They don't have to be a technical person. They don't have to be a legal expert. They just need to understand this is what accessibility means to individuals. This is why we do it. This is how you can play your part irrespective of what your role is in the business, everyone has a role to play in making our business successful. So you need to make sure that communication channel goes right across the board.

JODIE GREER:
Definitely. And you talk about the partnering piece and that is another one of the domains in the body of knowledge. That partnering is of the internal, there are so many teams that need to be embraced to make sure that everybody can play their part, and everybody understands what that looks like and what is expected and what is needed from them but also they have the knowledge needed.

Then you have the external partners. Suppliers, agencies, and consultants you work with and also especially larger organizations there are so many different agencies that may be doing segments for different areas of the organization. It can be quite difficult to make sure you're reaching everyone, so it needs to be part of that strategic plan to make sure you have a method to reach out to everyone and maybe that is through your contracts and procurement team. What are your thoughts on that?

NEIL EUSTICE:
You need to have an overarching plan for the whole business that says all of these teams have input into the accessibility of our business. So if we are buying something, we need to make sure what we buy is accessible to the people who are going to use it. We need to make sure the procurement team have the processes and policies in place but also have the understanding from an individual level as to why they are having these conversations and how they can talk to the people that they are buying stuff from.

The HR people need to understand accessibility and how the well-being of people is affected right down to every individual on the shop floor, be it the receptionist at the front door, they need to understand how do I greet people with different disabilities. Have I got the information to hand? Have I been trained in how to do this because I am the face of the business? So, everyone needs to understand accessibility including your suppliers and why you are doing and it's good to have an accessibility statement that you can show and show off to say look we are doing what we can to be as successful as possible. And ask for feedback as well.

JODIE GREER:
I really like that, the show off bit. For me it really is something to celebrate. You are inclusive. You actually care about the people that come to your business. In whatever ways that they are coming in, the fact that you care, surely that is a win right from the off. Especially from people’s interpretation and their first impression and things.

NEIL EUSTICE:
It must not just be a merit badge that you wear and show off if there's no action behind it. It is no good to have something stamped on your external website to prove its accessible if as soon as I get to talk to somebody, suddenly they find that the rest of the accessibility of your business falls over. You have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk.

JODIE GREER:
I was just checking on the Q and A. I noticed that there are some comments in the chat. A couple things good to pick up on, we were talking about retrofitting etc. Someone said “Absolutely, even more expensive in the built environment if accessibility is not addressed in the design. Moving stairs or elevators is certainly expensive. More so than adapting colour contrast.” Absolutely, I was in property for two decades and ya, retrofitting is never ever the preferred method. So, thank you for that. Someone else asked a really interesting question. More about not the world of adults. Any good practice or thought regarding teaching children in school about accessibility and universal design? Studying for grades five or six. I might need someone in the US to tell me the age of grades five or six.

NEIL EUSTICE:
That is a really good one. The schools, I can only speak from a UK education point but the schools in the UK are a lot more accommodating now than they ever were to children with disabilities. You will find there are teachers assistants in now to make sure we can keep children in the standard education streams without having them go to special schools as much as possible. There are integrations there. Children without disabilities mixed with children with disabilities. It is seen as just normal. That is the way of the world. We are all in the same boat together.

So, classrooms have to become more accessible to kids who use walking frames and things like that. Teachers need to understand accessibility because they are talking to children with cochlear implants or maybe need a little extra help sitting near the front because of visual disabilities. All sorts of things. It is becoming a lot more common now. I think the big secret is really just talk about it more. A bit like you talk about your kids about internet security now. When they are all on their phones and doing TikTok and all the rest of it. You wouldn’t not talk to your kids about staying safe online and I think we should do the same when it comes to disability and accessibility. Talk to kids about it and say look, there's so many different people in the world and we need to accommodate all of them.

SPEAKER:
With the adoption of WCAG 2.1 in many countries, there is an increased demand for web developers, designers and other professionals with knowledge of web accessibility standards and guidelines. With this growth comes the need for an objectively verified level of expertise. The Web Accessibility Specialist exam will provide individuals and employers with the ability to assess web accessibility competence. Complete the WAS and CPACC exam to earn the special designation of Certified Professional in Web Accessibility! 

JODIE GREER:
The integration is fantastic. I do however feel, even in the UK as well, that it is important that we have more real explicit focus on disability inclusion and on accessibility. Because I think that is part of the thing, we almost now get a little bit complacent. That there is integration and therefor it is kind of sorted, it is done. I think there needs to be more active discussion on these things. So, the point about educating children. The adult minds hardly ready to change, but what about children? I think it is easier to get into children because their minds are so open, and they are always learning. I mean we are all always learning, but of course that is actually what they are in school for. I think it would be fantastic to have a proper intention in schools to get people to understand what accessibility is.

When you leave education and go into the workplace for the first time, of course you want to prove yourself and demonstrate how good you are. You want to show you where the best choice and all of those things. You've got an awful lot going on. Then you also have some of this extracurricular stuff being thrown towards you. Do you want to get involved in networks? We have twelve, which one do you fancy? You could do them all! You have to really try to find this balance. And then someone is telling you “Oh, we also need you to know about accessibility and things”. Of course, it can start in the workplace. We have done it lots of times. It is certainly making a massive change in the world. But it is kind of too late. If people grow up understanding what it really looks like and understanding how to make it happen and the fact that it is just normality, it is just part of life day to day, then that is amazing. That is when you see proper cultural shift. It just becomes business as usual.

You stop needing a lot of this networking stuff dedicated because it is just standard practice. I would love to see it in schools, I guess is what I am saying, and I have had conversations myself with teachers in the UK about channeling it in. But if you do see this happening and other countries, share it on social media and tag me please. I would love to see more about what we do. Someone told me grades five to six is same as year 5 to 6 in the UK. A person with no children, I think that is like 10 years old. I think.

TRACEY SHIPMAN:
Jodie, somebody posted in the Q and A that it is 11 and 12. (Laughs)

JODIE GREER:
OK. No kids. (Laughs) So yeah, some of these points and questions that are coming in, are pretty good. So, I just want to make sure we don't miss anything. So certain devices that require a patent. Oh, sorry. Certain devices that PWD require are patented which prevents at times mass production, making it expensive. Open hardware and open source must be looked into. Yes. (Laughs) Yes.

NEIL EUSTICE:
There is a lot of open-source stuff when it comes to software around accessibility. Things like various fonts. You have the open dyslexic font and things like that. They are sharing a lot of information now. It is a lot easier to find open-source stuff with software. Hardware, I don't know about it. I think certainly there's a lot of competition opening up when it comes to hardware because you will see that somebody comes up with a bright idea. I saw something recently were somebody had invented a glove where somebody could sign with an electronic glove and it would translate it onto a screen.

Other people say, "That's a good idea, we can do something like that." It starts to spread. And of course, as it spreads it gets cheaper. But these things always take time. I think the more it becomes mainstream for accessibility and disability to be spoken about in every walk of life than the more people start saying there is business here, I can build something to help with this, and you get a lot of entrepreneurs actually trying to improve things as well and build something that is cheaper or even free sometimes.

It takes time.

JODIE GREER:
I will be honest; I still find it frustrating sometimes that the market is so slow to catch up with the real world. But there is movement. Definitely. We do need to see more in the hardware space. There needs to be a lot more leverage. It shouldn't be difficult, and it shouldn't be more costly because people have some sort of niche market. There is another question, actually, but this is from Christopher. Specifically, about the SLiA, so talking about a Strategic Leadership in Accessibility. Where should they be placed in an organization and we have had a lot of talk about this in the taskforce haven’t we?

NEIL EUSTICE:
Ya.

JODIE GREER:
My view is that it really depends on the size of an organization, the structure. For instance, if you are in a small or medium-sized company it may well be that it is one of the directors. It may well be your HR lead. It might be very different. But in a large organization I would love to see all large organizations with a dedicated accessibility lead, or potentially that could be your diversity and inclusion lead. Because of course the two certainly have clear synergies. What are your thoughts on that Neil, as we have talked about this a lot?

NEIL EUSTICE:
And there was a lot of conversation about does it have to be someone in the C-suite? Does it have to be a partner or director of a business that takes on this role? I think we decided that it needs to be somebody who has the ability to influence. So at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what grade they are, what position they have in the company as far as partner, director, manager, whatever. So long as they have the ability to influence the people that make the decisions.

So, it is choosing the right person for the job and the right position. And often, as you say, that does depend on the size of the business. The important thing about the strategic leader in accessibility is they have to make sure they can influence all the different component parts of your business, the HR, the facilities, the IT people. The top of the tree that have the finance in their pockets. They have to be able to talk to all these people in their own language and get them to understand why these things need to be done and get them to develop a plan for getting these things done.

So, I don't think at the end of the day you should get too hung up about what grade or position in the company should there be, or a case of is this the right person for the job. Have they got the knowledge and have they got the personality to get into all the different parts of our business and talk to people?

JODIE GREER:
Yeah, definitely. And of course, influence is really key. It is interesting, you mentioned finance. We are talking about influence. I will quickly mention Martin's comment about open source, because it is in the Q and A and I think it is a good point. So, open sourcing can be tricky to implement in bigger companies because big companies like to have responsible contact in case something doesn't work. That is true when it comes to making sure you actually have a clear route of communication, however sometimes it is also about what they have been used to working, ways of working. Sometimes there can be changes that are a bit scary but ultimately still prove beneficial. But thank you, Martin, that is a good point.

But you did mention finance, Neil. I wanted to come to that. Because another thing, it is a bit of a term I use, is the unconverted. We have lots and lots of different people, especially leaders in different companies, who may not be so people centric. However, those people are usually commercially centric. You know, dollars and cents certainly ring a bell. So, I would like to just get your views as well on so thinking, not just of course on legislation (can have a financial impact), but not just from a legislative perspective. When we are looking at the bottom line when it comes to the commercial impact, why would you influence organizations, those unconverted, as I say, to make the change and make sure they are being inclusive, and they are accessible?

NEIL EUSTICE:
So we can't forget about the commercial impacts,  accessibility is an economic driver on the organizational level. It is also a driver on the global economy level. Think about accessibility needs often don't visit countries purely because they don't see them as accessible. Not only tourism, but also medical tourism. There is money that could come into the country if it was more accessible. However, of course organizations also benefit directly from being accessible. Employee retention, we mentioned it slightly earlier, but employee retention, you save a fortune in induction and in training costs if you can retain your staff. Lots of studies have shown that employees with disabilities tend to be more loyal to a company, providing their needs are met. Disabled customers are more likely to come through your door if they don't experience barriers. Anybody who produces technology, websites, apps, applications, will tell you it is much more expensive to fix something retrospectively, as we said before, than it is to build it accessibly in the first instance.

So, there's lots of financial aspects to this. Again, the guy who stands, or the person who stands in for the SLiA in your business would be able to talk to all these different areas of your business, explaining the economic impact that accessibility or a lack of can have on that particular area of the business. Be there as a whole or as a component part of your business. It does affect everything.

JODIE GREER:
I completely agree. I do honestly feel that when it comes to influences, you do need to use both tools in a sense. You have the people impact, which is my real love, and I just think that should do itself, but people love a statistic! Everybody wants to know what the bottom line is. So, for me, definitely also making sure that when it comes to that influential message you get it bound for the fact that it is literally a financial win.

NEIL EUSTICE:
Also, we have got to think about how organizations can implement these effective ways of working to meet these accessibility objectives. So, what do you think a business needs to put in place to make sure they do meet the objectives of being an accessible business?

JODIE GREER:
So obviously you have got to start somewhere. Different organizations are at different points in this journey. But for me you need really clear and robust standards. I am not talking about having a really pretty documents on your internet somewhere. That is good, make it pretty. As long as it is accessible. But for me, it is the end-to-end piece. It is so important. I mentioned earlier about not having tick box exercises. That is so essential. If you have a true intent to be inclusive and to enable your staff and customers, that whole piece needs to start with your strategic plan. You need to have those standards and policies in place to enable the implementation of that. It needs to be clearly and explicitly communicated because often these things are a bit hidden. If you know where to find it, you can source the info yourself.

But also, about learning. It is not just about saying, "Please do this, this is essential, and we need this new way of working." What does that actually mean? How will I know if I am getting it right? Where is my source of information? Where is my champion? Where do I go for some support? It is that whole structural piece of course. You have got to get there. You have to start. That is why the strategic plan, for me, is so important, so you do understand how you are going to get to your end goals. Then it goes way beyond the point of measuring success, which can be tricky with accessibility because you went in and you have done your design and done your testing for instance if it is for digital.

But it is also about feedback. It is not just about waiting for feedback and seeing if you don't get any then it must be good news. It is about actively seeking that feedback, demonstrating your care for people. It really is important that it is end to end. That is the biggest thing. It has to be a proper, and it has to be able to bring, it doesn't kind of happen today and you completed at the end of April and you are done, and no one needs to look at it again. That is why someone has to have ownership. How do you keep it fresh and in line with the world today, tomorrow, and so on? What about your thoughts?

NEIL EUSTICE:
Communication is so very important when it comes to this education piece and continued communication. So, providing awareness, education and training on how to apply accessibility requirements or the policies for the digital and built environments and the people interactions is really essential. You've got to try to get all the people to bite this apple. You have to show it to them in such a way that interests them.

Depending on the role of the individual in the business, they might need to understand different aspects of accessibility and why they need to do something. You can't just point them at a piece of training and say there you go, do that, tic box, as you say. Yeah, you need to understand they have done it. You need to see they have done it in someway. You need them to evidence that they have done it. But the best way to evidence that they have done it is, well, are we improving? Have we got a matrix that we are filling in where we can say when it comes to this part of our business, where were we before and where are we now? Have we improved in our accessibility in this area? Do our people understand what we are doing, how we are doing it, and have they improved in their knowledge of accessibility as far as their role is concerned?

So, you really need to keep communicating, two way communication. You need to be getting that feedback, as you said, from people internally in your business, making sure that all the signposts are there as to what they need to do, how they need to do it, and when they need to do it by. Also, the feedback from your customers is so, so important. Not just, oh well e-mail us and we might do something about it.  But e-mail us and we will contact you and we will show that we have acted upon it and that we have done something about your feedback. And show off your feedback. If somebody has left you feedback on a website, show that feedback. Show what you have done about it so you can show action.

JODIE GREER:
I think they kind of, you said we did typed messaged, are really, really important as they do show real care. It's not to be embarrassed that you weren’t perfect in the first instance. Improvement is improvement. Care is care. I think that is the thing, a lot of organizations can be really hesitant to admit any kind of improvement space as in there wasn't one before yesterday. And I think just because you do need to improve doesn't mean you wasn’t wonderful, you probably was in an awful lot of ways but there was a gap and there were challenges for someone. But as soon as you are aware, you listened. And, as soon as practically possible you made the change. That is huge. That is progress. That is what we really need to see.

NEIL EUSTICE:
Loads of businesses are doing really good stuff but if you ask them to demonstrate it, to prove what they'd done, sometimes they find that a bit difficult because we just done stuff. If you have a proper plan and you have a proper matrix of where are we, where are we going and where are we heading for, then it's easier to prove. We have an exercise in the business disability forum in the UK where everyone fills in a matrix every year, to say, a maturity model, to say this is where we are and this is where we are heading for and we found very early on that if everybody is absolutely honest about this and we all were honest about our scores and said actually you know what we are not very good on that bit and I think we are pretty low on that bit.

More people stepped up and said actually, yes us too. And then we found there was a common theme, and you don't get anyone who is absolutely brilliant and expert in every single aspect of accessibility in your business. It is something that is moving all the time. It is like a slow-moving escalator. So long as you are moving, so long as you are going up, that is great and where you want to be. And sharing information with each other is often a great way to learn.

JODIE GREER:
Definitely. And of course, the biggest learning point are the people. So that feedback metric but also having some way, not necessarily feedback on existing services or solutions but having somewhere to actively seek those kind of improvement points. I think that is also really important. So, it is not hidden and you are proactive with engaging people. I think that is also really important.

SPEAKER:
The International Association of Accessibility Professionals membership consists of individuals and organizations representing various industries including the private sectors, governments, non-profits, and educational institutions. Membership benefits include products and services that support global systemic change around the digital and built environment. United in Accessibility, join IAAP and become a part of the global accessibility movement.